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Old 07-17-2007   #1
gtayumiko
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Used "muscle" cars

Hello Everyone and happy Tuesday!

Last weekend I spent a little bit of my time looking at used cars in my area. One thing I noticed is that 2006 Mustangs and Dodge Datonas seem to not hold their value that much when being resold used. Why is that? Just curious because I was pretty surprised to see almost all of these cars only being sold for under $20,000. Also I noticed that 2006 and 2007 Mustangs most have the V6 4.0 engines. I saw a few of them with 3.8 and 2.8 engines as well. So I did not see any 5.0 engines in any of the ones for sale. Why is that? I am wondering if V6 engines will now be top of line engines for all American sports cars, with the exception of Corvette.

I bring this information up because our GTAs have both the 5.0 and 5.7 engines (V8) in them. Is this a sign that a muscle car with a V8 will now be more harder to find? Plus is our GTAs going to be worth more then the 2006 and 2007 Mustangs and Dodge Datonas soon? I am just wondering if we can base our GTAs value on what the new cars have to offer in the way of engine sizes and resale value.

Yumiko
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Old 07-17-2007   #2
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Re: Used "muscle" cars

I think first off, you have to let the new Mustang body style get a few years under its belt. By this I mean it needs to be at least 10+ years old. 2nd you cant compare the Mustangs to the GTA's when it comes down to sales b/c the Mustang owned and still owns that market right now. As for the Charger/Daytona the new Mopar stuff just dont hold its value like the old stuff did unless it happens to be a truck and has a Cummins TD in it.
And as usual thats just my .02.
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1991 GTA Trans Am
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on the original motor!!!!
Time of Death on motor, 4:07pm on 05/29/2010.
Hp:211.2@4200rpms/Tq.328.5@2700rpms
Best et: 13.959@97.05mph
Best mph: 98.3
Best 60' : 1.875 on BFG Comp TA's w/ 32 lbs of air in them
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Old 07-17-2007   #3
gtayumiko
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Re: Used "muscle" cars

Why does the new Mopar stuff not hold the value that much? Is it cheaply made? Is the designs not that good? I wonder because they do not look that bad, I think the ugly cars are those Echos. The worst car I have ever seen is that Ford Focus. I had a friend who rented one and sitting in it was just a really bad experience. I would definitely be hating it if I was one of the stupid people who went into a three to four year debt purchasing one of those. Yumiko
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Old 07-17-2007   #4
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Re: Used "muscle" cars

I dont think its that. Its just Dodge has had a bad rap since the early 70's. I am hopin for Chrysler's sake that the Challenger changes all that.
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1991 GTA Trans Am
w/305,231 miles
on the original motor!!!!
Time of Death on motor, 4:07pm on 05/29/2010.
Hp:211.2@4200rpms/Tq.328.5@2700rpms
Best et: 13.959@97.05mph
Best mph: 98.3
Best 60' : 1.875 on BFG Comp TA's w/ 32 lbs of air in them
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Old 07-17-2007   #5
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Re: Used "muscle" cars

I had a Charger R/T rental for a week. I really like the car until I drove it. It was a serious letdown IMO. The interior was cheap not to mention the poor fit and finish, the brake light stayed on unless you held up the parking brake pedal and if I had to guess its a mid to high 14 sec car... yeah, so much for that legendary "Hemi". If I remember correctly it only had 400 miles on it when we got it. At the time I had a '96 Impala SS so I was totally used to the big car feel, so that wasn't the problem. The car to me just wasn't impressive at all.
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Old 07-17-2007   #6
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Re: Used "muscle" cars

GTAs are a niche market. You have to want one to actually go out and buy one. Most people today would sooner buy a new sports car than a shiny 80's sports car.

For starters, the gas mileage is better(gas prices in Ontario are rediculous right now), there's warranty on them, theres little to no maintenance for the first few years on a new car and you don't have the worry about someone prior to you driving the car hard and putting it away wet so to speak.

To me, getting a value on a car is strictly in what the buyer is going to pay for it.

I remember posting my notchback on Ebay for the first time. I tried to sell it for what I paid for it, and some guy whined and complained to me that I was selling garbage and that he wouldn't even pay $500 for it. I had another guy offer me $4000 for it. But honestly, it's all in the person who's going to buy it will dictate what your resale value is going to get you.

"Pure" GTAs will have a higher trade in value at the dealers and you can ask a higher price in a private sale, but again, it's all up to the person willing to take it off your hands and what you want to get for the car.

I could right now ask someone to buy my car for the original list price of something like $19000. Would I get it? Hell no. If it had 20 miles on it and was sitting in a shrink wrapped package for the past 20 years? Maybe.

I have to agree with Fearthisgta about comparing the new mustang to a GTA. It's almost like comparing apples and oranges. Mustangs are newer, there is a lot of them being made and they are really a nice overall car style wise. The GTA, I have to say again for sure, is a niche vehicle. It's one of those "if you like it, you will buy it" kind of cars. I dunno, what's everyone elses opinion?

Can you or would you base the value of your car off of the newer for sale sporty cars?
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Old 07-18-2007   #7
gtayumiko
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Re: Used "muscle" cars

All of what everyone saying is pretty interesting and accurate. Too bad about the cheaply made cars. I think that is the market now, cars are built now as a "disposable" item, meaning they are no longer built or designed to last that long. Hemi is used as a marketing tool I think, like designer name brands, people will go out and purchase it just because of the name.

And Merc3065, that is very interesting about what you are saying with the new car thing: " Most people today would sooner buy a new sports car than a shiny 80's sports car." I have a neighbor who went out and purchased a brand new Mitsubishi Eclips about eight months ago. He had a fourth generation Trans Am that he replaced it with, he and I were talking outside in the street on the day that he got rid of it. So last weekend, I met him in the street outside again and I just started to ask him how he felt the Mitsubishi was compared to the fourth generation Trans Am that he had gotten rid of. He actually wishes that he kept the Trans Am, is what he told me. He explained that the only benefit so far with having the new car was that it is better on gas. He claimed that his Trans Am was completely paid off and that insurance was cheap, much more cheaper. He tells me that not only does he have to pay the monthly car payment of around $500.00 per month, but he also has to pay for full coverage insurance, which he says is not only expensive because of all of the coverage but it is a very high rate because of the new car and it is considered by the insurance company as a decent high performance sports car. All in all, he says that he is paying something around $800.00 per month for car payment and insurances. And he has a few years to go before it is paid off.

So, some people may want to also consider that a new car will cost more to own and operate then an 1980s Trans Am. The only real advantage to having the new car is better gas mileage. If the car has been well maintained and driven responsibly, there should not be too many mechanical issues. Yumiko
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Old 07-18-2007   #8
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Re: Used "muscle" cars

Actually the reason alot of cars are using plastic is b/c its lighter and cheaper to fab. The general public is actually tired of the cookie cutters hence the reason for alot of new designs from the Big 3, like the new Camaro and the Challenger and they will probably have more plastic than cars now. But still cars are lasting longer now. If you look at the new 07 Silverado you will see what I mean even though its a good lookin truck. I guess it will just take some time to used to it.
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Cliff Jones
1991 GTA Trans Am
w/305,231 miles
on the original motor!!!!
Time of Death on motor, 4:07pm on 05/29/2010.
Hp:211.2@4200rpms/Tq.328.5@2700rpms
Best et: 13.959@97.05mph
Best mph: 98.3
Best 60' : 1.875 on BFG Comp TA's w/ 32 lbs of air in them
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Old 07-18-2007   #9
merc3065
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Re: Used "muscle" cars

Totally agree with your points Yumiko.

Now to rub salt in an old wound...

I bought my red T/A, Completely 100% documented, 48148mi on the clock. Very immaculate condition. Basically show room shape. Engine had the blues as was typical of the L98s valve seals and needed a new MAF to make it run proper. The car was well maintained, oil changes every 3 months while in storage, run only in dry weather, any oil leaks were looked after, parts replaced etc. Everything was done on it AND it was driven moderately.

At 57000 miles the engine developed a serious knock. Main bearings were gone. COMPLETELY gone. And this was an immaculate engine, how could this happen I wondered? So I went and had it repaired.

I did all this and after a while it developed a nasty tick at about 63000mi. I wondered what it could be.

I decided, nuts on it, I bought new heads, new intake manifold, new cam, new lifters, new push rods, new timing chain new runners, SLP cold air kit, rocker arms, valve covers... The whole works.

I popped the intake manifold off during the whole swap and found a shop towel in the oil galley.

And this was from a fully documented and well driven car with only 2 owners, the last one had it for 11 years. The shop towel I later found out was from a simple intake manifold gasket change by the last owner of the car. Omitted? Sure, but very well taken care of? I would say yes, as it was a shop in the US that forgot their towel.

Overall It costs more in gas to operate a V8 than it does a V6.
It costs more in insurance if you want to protect your investment. If he could have bought the eclipse outright with cash, or decided to buy a corolla instead of a "sporty" car, then his insurance would be lower IF he chose not to take full coverage. Or if he financed over a longer period of time or even leased it it would be cheaper overall.

When you buy new, you get just that, brand new. It's hard to compare new parts to old used parts that may or may not fail as in the example above.

The only reason why insurance is higher on new cars is simply because of the replacement value. A GTA if you had an appraisal done and found a good collector's car insurance place, they would insure it no problem for anywhere from 50-300/yr depending on your driving record and age.

Now a V6 is not a V8 by any means. A V6 stock will never compare to a V8 stock when you are talking domestic engines.

And honestly if I had the chance to do it again, I would have bought a nostalgic old 60s muscle car or a new 99-02 firebird. I would have avoided the 70s and 80s completely.

And comparing a 93-02 LT1/LS1 V8 to a 06/07 Mitsu V6, the torque ratings are completely different. Which is why he would say theres a huge difference.
The old addage rings true in this case, no replacement for displacement, except $$$.

To recap, you can find a gem and still find out it has dirt under the gold plating.
New cars cost more to replace, hence insurance is higher.
V6 cars can't really compare to a V8.

I still say a GTA is a niche vehicle simply because they are collector's items. Mostly collectors want them or the younger crowd that want to get into a cheap muscle car. Hence they go third gen f-body or foxbody as they are pretty much a dime a dozen, easy to work on and modify.

Volume devalues markets.
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Old 07-18-2007   #10
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GTA Year: 1988
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Re: Used "muscle" cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by merc3065
Totally agree with your points Yumiko.

Now to rub salt in an old wound...

I bought my red T/A, Completely 100% documented, 48148mi on the clock. Very immaculate condition. Basically show room shape. Engine had the blues as was typical of the L98s valve seals and needed a new MAF to make it run proper. The car was well maintained, oil changes every 3 months while in storage, run only in dry weather, any oil leaks were looked after, parts replaced etc. Everything was done on it AND it was driven moderately.

At 57000 miles the engine developed a serious knock. Main bearings were gone. COMPLETELY gone. And this was an immaculate engine, how could this happen I wondered? So I went and had it repaired.

I did all this and after a while it developed a nasty tick at about 63000mi. I wondered what it could be.

I decided, nuts on it, I bought new heads, new intake manifold, new cam, new lifters, new push rods, new timing chain new runners, SLP cold air kit, rocker arms, valve covers... The whole works.

I popped the intake manifold off during the whole swap and found a shop towel in the oil galley.
Oh, damn.... don't tell me this. I'm at 53,000 right now. I've already either got a u-joint issue or loose bolts on the torque converter.... and then you drop this little jewel on me. At least I know the intake manifold hasn't been off of it, unless it was from mile 1 to mile 60.

You made some excellent and quite valid points in your post. In fact, everyone has so far.
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Old 07-18-2007   #11
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Re: Used "muscle" cars

alot of the newer muscle cars are made with v6's for one reason. alot of people want a cheaper version of the car, with better gas mileage. lots of people want the style of a TA or mustang, not many of those people can afford 30k for the v8 version. not to mention the lower insurance with the v6 car.
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Old 07-18-2007   #12
gtayumiko
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Re: Used "muscle" cars

A towel inside the engine? Wow! I would think the heat and oil would have broke down the fabric into particles which would have clogged up the oil filter. Amazing.

And plastic parts cars are made from is for light weight reasons, you all know that anyways. They are just making the car as light as possible for the gas mileage factor. The most heaviest interior parts in my GTA are the front seats. Take those out and you must have at least 100 pounds removed from it. Yumiko
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Old 07-18-2007   #13
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Re: Used "muscle" cars

Remove the cast iron heads from the engine and replace with aluminum L98s and you've just saved another 100lbs...

And yes, it was chewed up around the edged by the lifters and push rods, but it was fully intact. It was one of those red cloth towels you get in the bag by the dozen. It was pitch black too.

But anyhow, the reason the bearings went was the rag clogged up the front return holes and starved the front of the motor of oil.

The nasty little tick was again due to the same problem AND the fact that there was a new HV oil pump in the engine from when I had it fixed.

The distributor gear was munched up pretty good.

Anyhow...
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Old 07-19-2007   #14
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Re: Used "muscle" cars

its funny because when i pull in to the local car hangout..all i see are mustangs and imports..most of the kids dont even know what a gta is...it baffles me ...but our cars are old ..its true..if someone really wants a gta then they will pay ..but most young people say they are too old..and wont spend any cash on them..and as far as them really being worth a ton of money in the future ...i have to say i doubt it..and i have a convertible and a notchback... these cars always seem to get overlooked ..from day 1 they werent given their proper place in the auto world...every one is still too old school 67 68 69 camaros..big deal..i would take my gta over one of those any day..it upsets me because the gtas are really beautiful cars...way ahead of there time...
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Old 07-19-2007   #15
gtayumiko
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Re: Used "muscle" cars

After we had my GTA completely restored on the outside, the last thing I put on was the badges and Pontiac logos. Before I had put one this last stuff, I had many people ask me what type of car it was because some of them thought that it sort of looked like a Corvette but not quite. And that was in 1998, ten years ago! So I think you got your answer as to why these "kids" were baffled by what your GTA is, because they are just nieve kids and all they know about is Mustangs and imports but they think they know everything about cars. Well, I know we were all in that category at one time in our younger lives, and then some unfortunates never grew out of it. But anyways go to a place where there are serious, mature, and knowledgable car enthusiasts, and they will know about the GTA without a doubt. Yumiko
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Old 07-19-2007   #16
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Re: Used "muscle" cars

agreed
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Old 07-19-2007   #17
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Re: Used "muscle" cars

Great thread Yumiko....

I guess I will jump in here and add a comment about the Mopar class of vehicles. As a former Jeep Grand Cherokee owner I will tell you that it was the worst car I have ever owned. It started most of it's problems around 40k on the odometer and after going back to the dealer every month for a year I finally dumped it for my Nissan truck. Even with a factory warranty and the bogus extended warranty I spent more on my Mopar piece of junk than any car I have ever owned. So new isn't necessarily better if it's a bad brand. Mopar has a bad wrap for a reason and although they thought they could change their image by claiming newer and better cars because of the merger with Mercedes it has really been just a joke and I personally don't think that they will every bring back a loyal customer base to Chrysler. As for the Charger, I too rented one for a week and it was the biggest piece of junk. This car was basically brand new with only 500 miles on it. The trunk release kept sticking and the it had an electrical glitch in the dash when you would hit a bump. It also has a boring interior design IMO but to each his own. I too liked it's appearance but after driving it I was most disappointed. Now as far as quality is concerned ... I am not too sure that we have a lot to brag about with our cars either. At least our cars are unique and damn good looking so I can deal with the lacking quality in construction.

As for Mustangs .... as Cliff said, it's really in a class of it's own. Mustangs and Corvettes are just in a different league and we really shouldn't even try to compare our cars to them. Of course no bias on my part or anything because you all know I love my GTA ... but I would love it a whole lot more if it performed half as well as my vette does..... But as Merc said the GTA is a niche car and appeals to a very select group of car enthusiasts.... which happen to be us. If everyone liked the same cars and there were a hundred thousand GTA's on the road it would just be another boring mass production item and who would really care about it at that point.

I have said before that money really does dictate lot of our decisions. I have been blessed to be able to buy any of the 80's muscle cars that I wanted but I would also say that if I could afford a new Z06 .... I would trade both of my current cars in a heart beat. Would I regret it? ... perhaps ... but I would being willing to take the risk.

Of course as far as value is concerned, it really is an individual thing and is based on each individual car as well. The GTA's are now classics and really should be valued on that basis alone. IMO

Darrell
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Last edited by Louvers; 07-19-2007 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 08-24-2007   #18
gtayumiko
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Re: Used "muscle" cars

Guess what happened guys? Well, I have a co-worker who has one of those fairly new Dodge Magnums. I always thought that they seem to look o.k. Well, I got to drive their Magnum the other day. I completely hated it! So what ever happened to the curves and contours of the interior designs? The Magnum not only was uncomfortable to sit in it, but driving it was very uncomfortable as well. The instruments are in bad places, the steering wheel was uncomfortable, and most of all, he only has 20,000 miles on it and it is feeling and sounding like it is about to stop running. It sounds horrible and I told him about it. He seemed to get a little bit defensive about it. But it is like the auto makers are wanting to design stuff that makes people not what to spend more time in them. Not like my GTA where sometimes after a long day on the sunny beach or out walking around site seeing, when I get back to my GTA, it is so comfortable, sometimes I just feel like putting the seat back and closing my eyes for a short nap, because it is so comfortable inside. But this Dodge Magnum is so uncomfortable, I just want to hurry up and get where I am going and get out of it. Maybe that is the way the government is going about getting people to drive less, by making automakers make the newer cars as uncomfortable as possible. I personnally do not see that many high mileage Dodge Magnums out on the roads in the near future. They way his sounded, my GTA at 246,000 miles sounded better then that before it was rebuilt. All I can say is, Dodge Magnum is junky and I would not want to be the poor soul who took out a forty-eight month loan with interest on it. Yumiko
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Old 08-24-2007   #19
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Re: Used "muscle" cars

Man u guys are brutal, I have a Magnum I actually like the car. I do agree with u on alot of the stuff you are saying. But I have to admit. The big 3 are not make any really quality products especially any really cool looking stuff. Im kinda holding out for a challenger
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Old 08-24-2007   #20
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Re: Used "muscle" cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by 87bucketgta
Man u guys are brutal, I have a Magnum I actually like the car. I do agree with u on alot of the stuff you are saying. But I have to admit. The big 3 are not make any really quality products especially any really cool looking stuff. Im kinda holding out for a challenger

LOL .... I guess the truth hurts sometimes

I think that people want to buy American, the biggest problem is they just get sick and tired of fixing all of the problems associated with Amercian cars. That's why my daily driver is a Nissan. It's hands down the most reliable vehicle that I have ever owned. I'll keep my American cars for weekend play .... so when they break down (and I know they will) ... I won't be stranded from work so I can make enough money to fix them.
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