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Old 11-10-2005   #81
george88gta
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Re: engine pings

Quote:
Originally Posted by TripleTransAm
No clue. I'd have to check the shop manual tonight (also, I have my WS6 with me today so I can't run downstairs to the parking garage and check it out in person).

Honestly, I've gotten so spoiled with these EFI cars that I forgot there even was a set of vacuum hoses to worry about to begin with (like, to the A/C controls, the cruise control, the FPR, the EVAP system, etc.)... might be a good idea for me to check them out over the winter storage, the car IS 18 years old after all!

Thanks for the suggestion on the throttle shaft for my '78, I didn't think of that! My gut feeling had been that things are incredibly gunked up inside the small passages, since occasionally dousing the carb with carb cleaner tends to improve things for a while. I'm also going to be testing every temperature-vacuum switch and diaphragm (EGR, choke pull-off, distributor advance, etc.) looking for any other source of leakage, just in case. But I never considered the worn throttle shaft bushings before. Luckily I have 6 other spare carbs to steal parts from, so I might swap bases if I don't want to go through the hassle of re-bushing the shaft (will it still be numbers-matching if I do this? ). Again, thanks for the suggestion!

Excellent project you have going there on your '55! Please keep us updated in a separate thread, I certainly am interested in how things will work out.

No argument on the OBD-II being the more powerful of the PCMs, but sometimes I find myself inundated with all the stuff that can be read off the PCM with OBD-II. Also, it seems that with the version of Autotap I have, the more parameters the software requests from the PCM, the slower the speed of frames I can pull out. I don't know if this is an OBD-II limitation or simply my older Autotap, but I like how our 3rd gen f-body ECMs dish everything out without giving us the choice, so you're guaranteed to get all the available info without worrying about slowing down the stream. That's why I prefer snooping around 3rd gen F-body ECMs more than on my WS6 (and on my Mercury Marauder as well - still haven't figured out the knock sensor count logic on THAT car!).
Numbers matching? Interesting question. Since the numbers are on the body of the carb, the numbers should still match. Dont know if a repair would invalidate the numbers matching concept. However, it would take a really discerning judge to find the repair.
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Old 11-11-2005   #82
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Re: engine pings

Quote:
Originally Posted by george88gta
Numbers matching? Interesting question. Since the numbers are on the body of the carb, the numbers should still match. Dont know if a repair would invalidate the numbers matching concept. However, it would take a really discerning judge to find the repair.

LOL, I was only half-serious. The car is a survivor, but I don't think I'd think twice about replacing a part that would hamper my enjoyment of the car. If I was really ape over originality, I'd be losing sleep over the fact it's been black since 1987 whereas the original colour was silver. Or the fact that the hood bird colour scheme is still that of a silver car (that makes my colour combo pretty unique, actually).

The day I'll submit this car for judging will be the day I ask my wife to shoot me for having ended up with another garage queen. Besides, I did the car show thing for 3-4 years back in the mid-to-late 90s with my GTA and collected a nice quantity of trophies which was fun considering I not only drove the car to the shows, I was also likely to be driving the car to work the next morning (provided no rain).

Basically I got burned out from the whole thing... ultra-competitiveness from people who would willingly spray armor-all tire dressing into the air just to better their chances (have you seen what armor-all dressing does on hot black paint? no damage, but good luck wiping it off). Watching competitors show up in trailers, park them around the corner, and then 'drive' the car through the gates of the shows that only allowed cars driven under their own power. And some of these things would BARELY run... I used to lose consistently to an immaculate 1988 GTA with about 40000-50000 less km on the clock than my car, which is okay since the car really did look that impeccable, but when he'd fire up the car to leave, he'd be fumigating the entire sub-section with his sputtering backfiring low-mileage never-driven TPI.

Worst of all, I was in it just for the fun of it and to meet other enthusiasts and exchange info and learn as much about these cars as possible, but the shock was how some would actually spread harmful info... possibly for their own benefit yet again? Anyways, in 1998 I finally focused my energies elsewhere and I don't miss the car show scene at all. In fact, I am more likely to admire a nice car I see in a parking lot or on the road rather than a show queen sitting at a show with trophies all around it... cars were meant to be driven. (this last point is particularly important to me today, having brought the GTA to work and once again feeling on top of the world from what would otherwise have been a mundane commute in a non F-body).

Anyway, sorry for the digression on the thread... looking forward to hearing feedback from you on your EGR diagnostics.
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Old 11-11-2005   #83
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Re: engine pings

Quote:
Originally Posted by TripleTransAm
LOL, I was only half-serious. The car is a survivor, but I don't think I'd think twice about replacing a part that would hamper my enjoyment of the car. If I was really ape over originality, I'd be losing sleep over the fact it's been black since 1987 whereas the original colour was silver. Or the fact that the hood bird colour scheme is still that of a silver car (that makes my colour combo pretty unique, actually).

The day I'll submit this car for judging will be the day I ask my wife to shoot me for having ended up with another garage queen. Besides, I did the car show thing for 3-4 years back in the mid-to-late 90s with my GTA and collected a nice quantity of trophies which was fun considering I not only drove the car to the shows, I was also likely to be driving the car to work the next morning (provided no rain).

Basically I got burned out from the whole thing... ultra-competitiveness from people who would willingly spray armor-all tire dressing into the air just to better their chances (have you seen what armor-all dressing does on hot black paint? no damage, but good luck wiping it off). Watching competitors show up in trailers, park them around the corner, and then 'drive' the car through the gates of the shows that only allowed cars driven under their own power. And some of these things would BARELY run... I used to lose consistently to an immaculate 1988 GTA with about 40000-50000 less km on the clock than my car, which is okay since the car really did look that impeccable, but when he'd fire up the car to leave, he'd be fumigating the entire sub-section with his sputtering backfiring low-mileage never-driven TPI.

Worst of all, I was in it just for the fun of it and to meet other enthusiasts and exchange info and learn as much about these cars as possible, but the shock was how some would actually spread harmful info... possibly for their own benefit yet again? Anyways, in 1998 I finally focused my energies elsewhere and I don't miss the car show scene at all. In fact, I am more likely to admire a nice car I see in a parking lot or on the road rather than a show queen sitting at a show with trophies all around it... cars were meant to be driven. (this last point is particularly important to me today, having brought the GTA to work and once again feeling on top of the world from what would otherwise have been a mundane commute in a non F-body).

Anyway, sorry for the digression on the thread... looking forward to hearing feedback from you on your EGR diagnostics.
I know what you mean. Some cars are so over restored it isnt tfunny. There were no factories that produced cars of that quality so I feel points should be awarded more for the real originality, not some big bucks idea of perfection. Anyway, ran thru the EGR diagnostic. I used Chart 7 as directed by the driveability section for detonation/spark knock. The chart is for suspected EGR problems and no code 32. First test is for the solenoid and that passed fine. First thing you do is to verify you have vacumn going to the solenoid, then check to see if the solenoid functions. Checking for vacumn is tricky, you have to open the throttle before you get any vacumn. The vacumn input to the solenoid comes from a line that runs under the plenum and hooks up somewhere near the throttle body. Butterfly closed, no vacumn. Next section checks to see if the EGR valve can hold vacumn. This is where mine fails, cant hold vacumn. So it looks like you can have a failing EGR valve and no check engine light. Ironically, the EGR valve I ordered, had parts missing so it had to be returned and I am waiting for a new one. Probably wont get to changing the valve until next week. My K2500 is hogging the garage, I had to weld in a new cab corner and if the weather holds, I will get it painted and back outside this weekend. This is my snowplow, so it takes priority over the toys. Disregard my question about the vacumn line routing. The two lines to the solenoid are routed correctly, one goes to the EGR valve and the other goes to the throttle body. So we are back on hold for a few days. With the weather getting colder, the chances of pinging diminish and it will be a crap shoot to bet that the EGR valve fixed the problem. However, the valve doesnt function so it has to be replaced.
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Old 11-12-2005   #84
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Re: engine pings

In my case, the engine appears to ping more on part throttle when it gets colder. Not at all what you would expect if high cylinder temperatures were to blame, with the colder air and all. But there might be other factors at play.

This year my '78 got all the attention, next year I believe it's the GTA's turn to get spoiled with fixing the little annoyances (the rear end's always been a little whiney, new tires, driveshaft balancing, possibly new fuel pump, new gaskets all around, etc.).
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Old 11-12-2005   #85
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Re: engine pings

Quote:
Originally Posted by TripleTransAm
In my case, the engine appears to ping more on part throttle when it gets colder. Not at all what you would expect if high cylinder temperatures were to blame, with the colder air and all. But there might be other factors at play.

This year my '78 got all the attention, next year I believe it's the GTA's turn to get spoiled with fixing the little annoyances (the rear end's always been a little whiney, new tires, driveshaft balancing, possibly new fuel pump, new gaskets all around, etc.).
Just got back home with my new EGR valve. I hooked it up to my hand held vacumn pump and it wont hold vacumn. So I attached it to the vacumn line coming from the solenoid, and reran the tests. No movement in the valve.One thing that is bothering me is that the EGR valve is Positive pressure and the shop manual states that it is supposed to be Negative. I am going to have to go back thru the manual very carefully to fgure this out. If I remember correctly, a positive valve requires exhaust backpressure to operate and that may be why they dont hold vacumn. I checked the ACDelco website for a part number and it crosses to the valve I have from NAPA. So now the mystery deepens. Anyone know which type of EGR valve is supposed to be on these engines and a source for one if it is truly should be a Negative valve?
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Old 11-12-2005   #86
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Re: engine pings

Looking up the shop manual as I type this...

Does your original have an N or P in the part number stamped on the valve? They correspond to negative or positive, respectively. This is simply to show what's currently on your engine.

Edit: The description on the negative valve indicates a bleed hole that opens when exhaust backpressure is negative. Not sure what the 'negative exhaust backpressure' represents. Does that mean the valve should only hold manifold vacuum if there is exhaust pressure present?
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Last edited by TripleTransAm; 11-12-2005 at 10:50 AM.
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Old 11-12-2005   #87
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Re: engine pings

Quote:
Originally Posted by TripleTransAm
Looking up the shop manual as I type this...

Does your original have an N or P in the part number stamped on the valve? They correspond to negative or positive, respectively. This is simply to show what's currently on your engine.

Edit: The description on the negative valve indicates a bleed hole that opens when exhaust backpressure is negative. Not sure what the 'negative exhaust backpressure' represents. Does that mean the valve should only hold manifold vacuum if there is exhaust pressure present?
the original valve is long gone. The replacement valve,installed when the engine was changed, and the new one both have "P" stamped in them. Found a note on the Autozone website stating that this part number valve cant be checked with a vacumn pump. Question that needs to be answered is "which valve type is required?". Definetely need to more research. I find the shop manual a bit confusing. First stating that these engines use a Negative valve and then go in to describing a Positive valve. I found an update to the shop manual ( GM service bulletin) and in there they describe the valve as Positive. In between coats of paint on mytruck, I will dig in to this tonight. So far it looks like the shop manual is incorrect unless they are talking about something other than a handheld vacumn pump.
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Old 11-12-2005   #88
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Re: engine pings

Quote:
Originally Posted by george88gta
the original valve is long gone. The replacement valve,installed when the engine was changed, and the new one both have "P" stamped in them. Found a note on the Autozone website stating that this part number valve cant be checked with a vacumn pump. Question that needs to be answered is "which valve type is required?". Definetely need to more research. I find the shop manual a bit confusing. First stating that these engines use a Negative valve and then go in to describing a Positive valve. I found an update to the shop manual ( GM service bulletin) and in there they describe the valve as Positive. In between coats of paint on mytruck, I will dig in to this tonight. So far it looks like the shop manual is incorrect unless they are talking about something other than a handheld vacumn pump.
Update. In reading the manual, PORT EGR valves do not have an "N" or a "P" stamped in them.I am guessing here, but does PORT mean the Port Fuel Injected engine as compared to a TBI engine? Anyway, I recall having trouble getting an EGR valve back when I changed the engine since we could not read the part number on the original valve. We went with the documentation and picked the Positive valve. I checked a few websites, for EGR valves and most of them indicate you cant test this valve with a vacumn pump. All show a Positive EGR valve, so I guess Positive is the correct valve. Only way I can find to verify the operation is to ground the diagnostic terminal ( ALDL)have the engine running, apply ported vacumn ( by raising the rpm over 1500) and watching the valve to see if the diaphragm moves. Not an easy operation. I did take the car for a run this afternoon. I had the vacumn guage attached to the output of the EGR solenoid and the PCM does call for EGR, and of course, no pinging. So at this point, I feel that the PCM, vacumn lines and EGR solenoid are working correctly. I think I will take off the plenum and replace the EGR valve. The aftermarket valves require a reducer to limit the size of the orifice and I dont recall installing one way back when I made the engine change. Also would be a good time to perform some maintenace to ensure the ports are clean. FYI, ported vacumn is from the atmospheric side of the butterfly, only there when you open the butterflies. Truck is painted so the GTA can go in to the garage Monday or Tuesday. More to follow.
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Old 11-12-2005   #89
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Re: engine pings

Quote:
Originally Posted by george88gta
Update. In reading the manual, PORT EGR valves do not have an "N" or a "P" stamped in them.I am guessing here, but does PORT mean the Port Fuel Injected engine as compared to a TBI engine? Anyway, I recall having trouble getting an EGR valve back when I changed the engine since we could not read the part number on the original valve. We went with the documentation and picked the Positive valve. I checked a few websites, for EGR valves and most of them indicate you cant test this valve with a vacumn pump. All show a Positive EGR valve, so I guess Positive is the correct valve. Only way I can find to verify the operation is to ground the diagnostic terminal ( ALDL)have the engine running, apply ported vacumn ( by raising the rpm over 1500) and watching the valve to see if the diaphragm moves. Not an easy operation. I did take the car for a run this afternoon. I had the vacumn guage attached to the output of the EGR solenoid and the PCM does call for EGR, and of course, no pinging. So at this point, I feel that the PCM, vacumn lines and EGR solenoid are working correctly. I think I will take off the plenum and replace the EGR valve. The aftermarket valves require a reducer to limit the size of the orifice and I dont recall installing one way back when I made the engine change. Also would be a good time to perform some maintenace to ensure the ports are clean. FYI, ported vacumn is from the atmospheric side of the butterfly, only there when you open the butterflies. Truck is painted so the GTA can go in to the garage Monday or Tuesday. More to follow.

This is just a thought but, if you dont have to have the EGR to pass emissions then I would just block it off. I did on mine and have yet to get a light. Its just a thought. Looks like you are makin some progress with the car, glad to hear it.
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Hp:211.2@4200rpms/Tq.328.5@2700rpms
Best et: 13.959@97.05mph
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Best 60' : 1.875 on BFG Comp TA's w/ 32 lbs of air in them
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Old 11-12-2005   #90
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Re: engine pings

Quote:
Originally Posted by fearthisgta
This is just a thought but, if you dont have to have the EGR to pass emissions then I would just block it off. I did on mine and have yet to get a light. Its just a thought. Looks like you are makin some progress with the car, glad to hear it.
Starting to pick away at this issue. Dont want to sound like a " Mr. Green Jeans", but at present they only look to see if the emissions equipment is installed. However, sine 9/11/2001, the interstates around here are really getting crowded and we are only 1 county away from full emissions testing. With that said, it looks like you cant get an error code if you have the EGR valve in place, but no vacumn going to it. Reading thru the shop manual, EGR not working can cause the pinging I am seeing. Basically, I would like to resolve the issue and since I am not pushing the engine to its max, I would like the EGR to work and the pinging to go away. Time will tell, but I feel that this engine is mild enough that the stock emissions should work. Guess we will have to wait and see.
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Old 11-13-2005   #91
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Re: engine pings

Quote:
Originally Posted by fearthisgta
This is just a thought but, if you dont have to have the EGR to pass emissions then I would just block it off. I did on mine and have yet to get a light. Its just a thought. Looks like you are makin some progress with the car, glad to hear it.
From what I have seen so far, just removing the EGR valve doesnt set a code. The circuit has to fail and if you left everything intact, except the valve, you probably will not get a light. Since the EGR is involved in keeping the combustion chamber temps down, how did you work around this? Colder plugs or a colder thermostat?
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Old 11-13-2005   #92
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Re: engine pings

Quote:
Originally Posted by george88gta
From what I have seen so far, just removing the EGR valve doesnt set a code. The circuit has to fail and if you left everything intact, except the valve, you probably will not get a light. Since the EGR is involved in keeping the combustion chamber temps down, how did you work around this? Colder plugs or a colder thermostat?

Colder tstat. I have always ran a 160. Its seems to work the best since my timming and fp are set at 13 deg(initial) and 46 psi.
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1991 GTA Trans Am
w/305,231 miles
on the original motor!!!!
Time of Death on motor, 4:07pm on 05/29/2010.
Hp:211.2@4200rpms/Tq.328.5@2700rpms
Best et: 13.959@97.05mph
Best mph: 98.3
Best 60' : 1.875 on BFG Comp TA's w/ 32 lbs of air in them
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Old 11-13-2005   #93
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Re: engine pings

Quote:
Originally Posted by fearthisgta
Colder tstat. I have always ran a 160. Its seems to work the best since my timming and fp are set at 13 deg(initial) and 46 psi.
When I had the custom chip burned, it was set for a 195 thermostat. Never really had a pinging problem until the last year or so, about when they added ethanol to the fuel around here. If the EGR valve doesnt fix it, I will try colder plugs. If that fails, then I guess the only recourse is another custom chip set for a 180 or 160 thermostat and maybe a bit less total timing. If I go that route, then I will see if I can get this beast set up to run 87 octane. With 9:1 compression, that should be achievable. Car really gets babied, only occassionally do I get on it to clean out the carbon. Of course, when I am on the Interstate, all bets are off, still like to move along when the traffic permits. Last year I followed my son down to Pennsylvania for a car cruise. He has a 2002 WS6 and a heavy foot. Likes to try and leave the "old man" in the dust. Needless to say we made good time on that run.
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Old 02-20-2006   #94
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Re: engine pings

Quote:
Originally Posted by george88gta
When I had the custom chip burned, it was set for a 195 thermostat. Never really had a pinging problem until the last year or so, about when they added ethanol to the fuel around here. If the EGR valve doesnt fix it, I will try colder plugs. If that fails, then I guess the only recourse is another custom chip set for a 180 or 160 thermostat and maybe a bit less total timing. If I go that route, then I will see if I can get this beast set up to run 87 octane. With 9:1 compression, that should be achievable. Car really gets babied, only occassionally do I get on it to clean out the carbon. Of course, when I am on the Interstate, all bets are off, still like to move along when the traffic permits. Last year I followed my son down to Pennsylvania for a car cruise. He has a 2002 WS6 and a heavy foot. Likes to try and leave the "old man" in the dust. Needless to say we made good time on that run.
Well, I started pulling the engine apart today. EGR valve dosent look too good. The pintle was lower in the body than the new replacement valve. Both are the same brand/part number, so you would think they would look the same. When you compress the pintle on the new valve, you can hear air moving thru the diaphragm, the old valve doesn t make any sounds, probably leaking. I checked the EGR passageway and it is clear. I can blow compressed air thru the egr port in the intake manifold and hear it coming out the exhaust pipes. So it looks like the old EGR valve is defective. One thing that is of a concern, this is a positive system and relies on exhaust back pressure to operate ( I think that is correct). I have a low restriction cat and a low restricton exhaust system installed, wonder if there is enough back pressure to work the system? While it is apart, I am installing new exhaust manifold gaskets ( copper) and a colder set of spark plugs. I may even change to a 180 thermostat since this is a warm weather car. I am also going to replace the 24 pound injectors ( ACCEL) with a set of 22 pound SVO injectors. Anyone know if the ECM chip needs to be corrected for the smaller injectors? More to follow, but I wont be putting it back on the road until spring, so the final test is a way off.
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Old 02-20-2006   #95
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Re: engine pings

you can probably get away without a chip by raising up your fuel pressure to compensate for the less lb injectors.
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Old 02-20-2006   #96
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Re: engine pings

Quote:
Originally Posted by MunsonGTA
you can probably get away without a chip by raising up your fuel pressure to compensate for the less lb injectors.
I had heard that there is a table or constant for the injector size. I know that when I installed a stock 350 chip, the car really ran poorly. Anyway, since I dont race this car, I may want to change the chip to take advantage of 87 or 89 octane since the engine is only 9.1:1 compression. Have to talk with some chip burners to see if it is feasible and will it actually run well on the lower octane fuel or will I just get poorer gas mileage by switching. I have plenty of time, it is still winter around here.
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Old 02-20-2006   #97
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Re: engine pings

check out www.lsracingchips.com if you are interested in a new tune
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11.16 at 123 mph.
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Old 02-21-2006   #98
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Re: engine pings

Quote:
Originally Posted by MunsonGTA
check out www.lsracingchips.com if you are interested in a new tune
Thanks for the link, I will check them out. Not going to jump in to changing the chip this time without doing some homework. The chip that is presently in the car is a custom from Hypertech and it never really ran right and I cant say much for their tech help, e.g. the engine was retarding severly and their initial advice was to remove the knock sensor wire and ignore the check engine light. Live and learn. You dont want to know what I paid for this chip!
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Old 02-21-2006   #99
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Re: engine pings

Wow that's definitely not advice you want to follow, that's typical big company tech right there. My buddy Jamy runs lsracingchips.com, you'll never have to worry about that kind of stuff with him. He's always available to help with tech questions or to make the chip right. He's tuned a couple of the cars on this site, including mine.
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87 GTA: Forged 408 LSX short block, TEA stage 2 cnc ported 243 heads, BTR Stage 3 stroker cam, Fast 102 intake, NW 102 TB, Longtube headers, custom 411 ECM, custom harness, custom tuned, Performabuilt stage 2 4l60E with PTC 2800 stall, 9 bolt rear with 3.70 gears and TAP girdle.

11.16 at 123 mph.
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Old 02-21-2006   #100
george88gta
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Re: engine pings

Quote:
Originally Posted by MunsonGTA
Wow that's definitely not advice you want to follow, that's typical big company tech right there. My buddy Jamy runs lsracingchips.com, you'll never have to worry about that kind of stuff with him. He's always available to help with tech questions or to make the chip right. He's tuned a couple of the cars on this site, including mine.
Yeah, I was surprised with that comment from them. We worked it out, I explained that I didnt pay a ton of money for a custom chip, so I could ride around looking at my check engine light. Turns out that the engine specs called for a very high initial timing and they did not take that in to consideration when they made the chip. They used the stock 350 timing info. I retarded the spark and all was well. Next chip will have plenty of conversation between me and the burner. Dont want to go thru this again.
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