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Old 05-01-2005   #1
Wrangler
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Help Me Please VATS info required

This is my first GTA it is a 1988 model year car, it has the digital dash 5.7L auto.The inside is black cloth,the out side is metalic red,it does not have T roofs.The RPO sticker is damaged.My problem is does this car have VATS?>>How can I check to varify it?The ignition key I got with the car is not an original key,nor is the cylender in the coloum....The odometer reads 30.000mi

I have tried to start the car with no luck,I have spark at the coil,but no Fuel pressure at the shrader, How do I determine if is a vats problem?where would the VATS module be located?I feel this is a combined problem(I have isolated the fuel pump circut and tried to power the pump seperatly with no luck)

Like all cars they have story....This car was an atempted theft years back and was taken to mechanical repair facility where it was halfassed put back together, The car has not run in the last 36 moths.I now own the car and I am making progress,Just need some help.....Thanks
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Last edited by Wrangler; 05-01-2005 at 09:24 AM.
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Old 05-01-2005   #2
The Anvil
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Re: VATS info required

The VATS module is located at the base of the steering column, IIRC. If the car came with it, and the key cylinder and key have changed, oh boy. You have a problem. The VATS needs to see the resistance in that original key to allow the engine to start.

The easy way to bypass all of this is to get a custom chip made without VATS.
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Old 05-01-2005   #3
MunsonGTA
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GTA Year: 1987
GTA Engine: Custom
Re: VATS info required

there is also a way to bypass the vats by jumpering 2 wires down by the kick panel on the drivers side. I'm pretty sure they didn't start putting vats into the GTA until the 89 model.

Your fuel pump could be dead. Did you try any trouble shooting tricks to see if you have a bad fuel pump relay? I would look into the fuel pump relay or fuel pump itself if you aren't getting any pressure. Does the car throw any codes? Does the car even turn over or does it turn over and just not fire up?
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Last edited by MunsonGTA; 05-01-2005 at 11:27 AM.
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Old 05-01-2005   #4
Brett89GTA
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Re: VATS info required

My sources say that '89 was the first year for VATS on the Firebird. If your car does have it...if the VATS is preventing the car from starting, the SECURITY light will come on in the dash. After that happens you have to wait about 5 minutes before the car will start (assuming the system is working correctly).

On the VATS lock cylinder, there are two little wires that go to the part of the cylinder that connect up with the pellet in the key. On my car, one of those little wires broke from the cylinder rotating back and forth over the years. I replaced the lock cylinder with another GM part that is VATS compatible. VATS is enough to stop the casual thief, but not a pro. If your car does have VATS, there is a good chance that the reason it was an attempted theft and not a theft recovery is because the anti-theft system did its job.

If you power the pump seperately, do you get fuel pressure? Can you hear the pump run?
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Old 05-01-2005   #5
firehawk35
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Re: VATS info required

OK, from what I have learned VATS started mid 1988. Some came with it some without. One way to tell is if the original door windows are there they are printed with anti- theft warnings. Does your security light come on?? If no light, no VATS. If you have a light it will come on for a few secs then go off when you trun the key. With Vats working and using the wrong key, the fuel pump will prime but the starter will not run, nor will the injectors fire. You can bypass the starter by using a jump wire in the starter plug located behind the drivers kick panel, but the injectors will still not fire. You can bypass the whole thing but it take some time. Sounds like to me you dont have a VATS and have some other issue with your fuel pump.
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Old 05-01-2005   #6
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Re: VATS info required

ok I don't have VATS this I now know.There is a three wire conector up under the rear of the car for the pump...grey,violet,black.on the pump side I tried 12v to the grey and a seperate ground to the black.pump np workie.
I then checked with a DVOM to see if I was getting a signal(12v to feed the pump)no signal.So now I have two problems,pump,and possible relay.I have spark at the coil,I need a diagram of the circut to check all posible causes where is the FP relay?what clor are the wires,and how many are there?

Thanks for the help with VATS,My car was made in 10/87 and does not have the VATS equipment.Any help with FP diagram woyld be greatly appreciated.
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Old 05-01-2005   #7
Brett89GTA
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Re: VATS info required

I wouldn't worry about no power to the pump for now...the ECM shuts off the fuel pump if the car doesn't fire up within 2 seconds after the ignition is turned on. It does this so that in the event of an accident, the fuel pump won't keep running with the engine off.

Here's the troubleshooting chart flow for zero fuel pressure from the factory service manual:
1. Install fuel pressure guage; turn on ignition. Pump will run for two seconds. Confirm that fuel pressure is 40.5-47psi.
|
Not OK
|
2. Turn ignition off. Apply 12V to fuel pump test terminal. Listen for fuel pump running.
|
Pump not running
|
3. Check for open wire on CKT120 or open ground CKT150
|
Wiring OK
|
4. Replace in-tank fuel pump

My manual is for an '89, and CKT120 is identified as being a tan/white wire. Maybe someone here will have a manual for an '88.

FYI, if the ECM doesn't see reference pulses (tach signal) coming from the engine during cranking, it will shut off the fuel pump after 2 seconds because it will think the engine isn't cranking/running. Check that out too. Does the fuel pressure change at all during cranking...at least for the first few seconds the engine starts turning over?

Last edited by Brett89GTA; 05-01-2005 at 09:40 PM.
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Old 05-02-2005   #8
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Re: VATS info required

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brett89GTA
I wouldn't worry about no power to the pump for now...the ECM shuts off the fuel pump if the car doesn't fire up within 2 seconds after the ignition is turned on. It does this so that in the event of an accident, the fuel pump won't keep running with the engine off.

Here's the troubleshooting chart flow for zero fuel pressure from the factory service manual:
1. Install fuel pressure guage; turn on ignition. Pump will run for two seconds. Confirm that fuel pressure is 40.5-47psi.
|
Not OK
|
2. Turn ignition off. Apply 12V to fuel pump test terminal. Listen for fuel pump running.
|
Pump not running
|
3. Check for open wire on CKT120 or open ground CKT150
|
Wiring OK
|
4. Replace in-tank fuel pump

My manual is for an '89, and CKT120 is identified as being a tan/white wire. Maybe someone here will have a manual for an '88.

FYI, if the ECM doesn't see reference pulses (tach signal) coming from the engine during cranking, it will shut off the fuel pump after 2 seconds because it will think the engine isn't cranking/running. Check that out too. Does the fuel pressure change at all during cranking...at least for the first few seconds the engine starts turning over?
This is great information,thank you.Any idear where this test terminal is located,or what it looks like?
I have tried to power the pump seperatly,with no luck,I pretty sure I'm in for swaping out the pump and sender.I would like some input on what type of pump to use,As I plan on a few upgrades down the road.
Thanx for the great input!
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Old 05-03-2005   #9
MunsonGTA
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GTA Year: 1987
GTA Engine: Custom
Re: VATS info required

if you get a new pump go with an intank walboro or granatelli 255 lph high pressure fuel pump. They are around 120 + shipping.
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11.16 at 123 mph.
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Old 05-03-2005   #10
gtayumiko
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Re: VATS info required

I have a supplemental manual for my 1987 GTA in referencing to stock/factory fuel system. It say in there that if you replace different fuel pump from what car was design to have from factory, if this replacement pump creates over sixty pounds of fuel pressure, you will ruin your stock/factory fuel pressure regulator, in case you are going to replace with higher then sixty pounds fuel pressure capability pump. Just for your information about this car fuel system. Yumiko
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Old 05-04-2005   #11
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Re: VATS info required

What is the O.E.M pupm rated for? Also has any one any info on what the three wires are ID as,I figgure black=gronund,violet?,Gray?......anyone? where can i get a dealer style repair/troubleshooting manual for my car?

Thanx guys.
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Old 05-05-2005   #12
gtayumiko
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Re: VATS info required

I can check manual when I get home, but guess right now, perhaps positive, negative, and violet one could be the float mechanisms. In this manual, factory fuel pressure range between 41 to 47psi. but can only have this for few seconds while engine not running/cosuming fuel. So if you replace factory pump with high pressure one over 60psi, you will have to change factory fuel pressure regulator, which mean perhaps changing injectors and this all my affect computer. Yumiko
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Old 05-05-2005   #13
Wrangler
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Re: VATS info required

Quote:
Originally Posted by gtayumiko
I can check manual when I get home, but guess right now, perhaps positive, negative, and violet one could be the float mechanisms. In this manual, factory fuel pressure range between 41 to 47psi. but can only have this for few seconds while engine not running/cosuming fuel. So if you replace factory pump with high pressure one over 60psi, you will have to change factory fuel pressure regulator, which mean perhaps changing injectors and this all my affect computer. Yumiko
Thanx yumiko,I am going to replace the pump this weekend at a friends shop,What is a good choice for brake pads on my TA?
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Old 05-05-2005   #14
Brett89GTA
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Re: VATS info required

I use Bendix Titanium Metallic pads...MKD series.
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Old 05-10-2005   #15
Transam6103
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Re: VATS info required

i have a 88 gta and it does have the VATS as well, and i had to have key and keycylinder and ignition modual all replaced cuz the modual took a dump....the only prob is, that the moduals only read the key that is first started with, it reads the key and incodes it...we had to replace the modual when they replaced the key cylinder....not sure how much this helps.....

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