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Old 04-30-2002   #1
f-crazy
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fuel

the other day i went to a place called floyd bennet air field..fred im sure you know where this is....i went to the end turned around and floored it....i got to about 120 and right before i was going to shift into 5th...it sputterd and shut off...i bumpped it back to life and slowed down...when i stopped it stalled again...when i restarted it it was idlesing very rough so i revved it a little to "clean it out" and it wouldnt go over 2,000 rpm even with my foot on the floor...i headed home and when i pressed the gas pedal down n e more then a 1/2 inch it would stutter and start to die....about 2 miles down the road it died completly..and left me and me g/f stranded on the belt parkway.....i called my buddy to come push me home (ridge towing company wanted $300 to tow me)...the car sat the rest of the day and yesterday...i checked for spark and there is....it sounds like the fuel pump pressureizes but could that be all the electronics starteing up?.....i crank on it and it wont even girgle...could the fuel filter be clogged or is the pump bad?...if it is the filter do i still need to drop the tank to clean it out??....i dunno whats going on but it needs to be taken care of...
about the filter..i usually keep less then a half a tank in my car because its less weight =) more then not its at a 1/4 tank or less...i called a few places and its about 80 for an ac/delco fuel pump...the dealer wanted 120 for it....im sure a fuel filter isnt that much and i really hope thats what it is....
sorry for the long post but i felt i need to explain in detail whats happening....
i havent been on for a while because my puter phucked up....im at a library now lol
let me know guys
"CRAZY"
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Old 04-30-2002   #2
f-crazy
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one qucik question.....what is the easiest quickest and least of a headache to drop the tank?...i looked on thirdgen.org but i didnt see an article on hoe to drop the tank i know theres one there but i couldnt find it this time....let me know guys cuz if i gotta change the filter im gonna drop the tank n e way to clean it out...also how should i do that??....i should change the pump at the same time then right??....so i dont have to drop it again
thank fellas
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Old 04-30-2002   #3
brandon87gta
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Got this off the Turbo Trans Am Page(should be the same procedure):

Approx. time of 6 hours

1) Drain the tank as much as possible.

2) Remove both tires. If you're not on a lift, put the chassis on jack stands as high as it'll go and let the axle drop all the way down. Disconnect the shocks to allow the axle to drop more. Remove the panhard rod and there's a cross brace beneath that I recall. Removing these will allow the exhaust to drop. Disconnect the exhaust at the cat, remove all muffler hangers, and swing the exhaust so it sits diagonally in the car with the muffler sticking out the right passenger side. With the axle still in the car, you can't get the exhaust out, but you don't need to. Just position it so that the "hump" of the exhaust that goes over the axle is slid all the way over to the right and resting between the axle flange (where the lug nuts go) and the inside rear right fender. Get that exhaust as far to the passenger side as possible - you just won't be able to take it completely out.

3) Remove the heat shield - lots of little bolts and one really tricky one on the passenger side!

4) Dropping that will reveal the tank, retained with two straps. Remove the bolts from the two straps and allow the tank to drop. Caution: don't bend those straps too much, as reshaping them for the install is a PAIN! Those bends are EXACTLY in the right places - too many bends will make the strap just short enough that you won't be able to get the bolts started! Get the bends exactly right and the bolts will reach & start! Take it from the voice of experience!

5) Removing the tank is a pain, as you'll have to angle it out and slide it to the right as much as possible! Note the exhaust isn't in the way - it won't clear the body on the right. The trick is to stick a long crow bar into the filler hole and bend the neck slightly! You'll see what I mean once you do it. Bending the neck slightly allows the tank to drop far enough to clear the body on the right. It's almost like the hole that the filler neck goes thru isn't large enough. The filler neck will hang on the lip of that hole. Same thing with the install. Now that the neck is bent it'll slide in easier, and the neck will be angled "down" lower in the hole from stock. This is a good way to tell which TAs have had the tank R&Red! Look at any TA tank in a salvage yard and you'll see that the neck is bent down - now we know why!

6) Installing the pump: Look carefully how everything is mounted, particularly the orientation of the fuel strainer (sock). The pulsator is a big gray rubber looking thing. Look at the main supply tube coming off the pump. It is swaged down at the end of the pickup tube where the pulsator is slid over. The pulsator connects the fuel pump to the supply tube which is part of the hanger. You will know what I am talking about when you take the pulsator off. Take a drill bit, counter sink, or circular file and open up the end of the inlet. I believe it is 1/4" or 5/16". Be sure to flush out the metal debris. Don't reuse the pulsator, use a 2-3/8" length of high-pressure fuel injection hose instead. Use mini hose clamps to secure the hose, making sure they do not short the two metal terminals on the pump. When you install the new fuel sock make sure it is facing correctly on the pump.

7) Reinstall the tank, exhaust & axle. Add fuel, turn the ignition on, check for leaks, start the engine, and check again for leaks.

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Old 04-30-2002   #4
gtayumiko
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Hello,

In regarding to engine not working....same thing happen to me two times. First, I change coil and pickup coil. Problem fixed. Second time, it was bad ignition control module. Check these items, maybe this is where your problem may be. I also changing fuel pump in my 87' GTA tank three or four times before. Get ready for alot of work! Maybe check fuse first because it just might be burn out. Yumiko.
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Old 04-30-2002   #5
JAY87GTA
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If you have spark then it's probably fuel. Do yourself a favor and buy one of those 20 dollar autozone fuel pressure gauges. It will save you alot of heartache down the road. Check the fuel pressure and if it doesn't have any then there is your problem, obviously. If you hear the pump kick on that eliminates the power issue. Have fun changing the pump, it's a mother!
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Old 05-01-2002   #6
Fred91GTA
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Hey F-Crazy, how's it going? Long time no see... Anyway, the fuel filter on a '91 GTA is really easy to take out. Though I'd recommend just changing the damn thing. It's located just forward of the rear axle held to the floor pan by a bracket with lines leading out of it. Now the fuel pump, I've never tried and I never will... cause from what I hear, it's gonna be a real mother...

Anyway, good luck.
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Old 05-01-2002   #7
silverado92
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I agree. Stick a fuel pressure gauge on the fuel rail and try to start it. Stick a new fuel filter on too. Pretty simple change. Should have more than 30psi of fuel pressure. These are two easy things to check out. Better than changing out that fuel pump.
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Old 05-01-2002   #8
DarionIV
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Go for the simple things first. Change the fuel filter before even thinking about the pump. (believe me the tank can be a mother to get out)

Also, check all of your vacuum lines. I know this may seem weird but I had a similar problem with an S-10 pickup. It turned out the I had blown a vacuum line.

Just remember take each thing one at a time and try thing enexpensive and simple things first. Saves a lot of headaches.
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Old 05-01-2002   #9
f-crazy
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i checked the fuses today there good...i had the control module checked a few months back it was good then but ill get it checked again...ill change the filter cuz its 9 dollars and if its it then its done with....when i key it up i hear the fuel pump come on so im really hoping its not the pump..but if it is then im gonna change it myself...but i dont have jackstands and ramps would do no good....and as far as disconnecting the exhaust at the cat well thatll be fun lol....i had a flowmaster system put on and yall know that little lip were that "doughnut gasket clamps around the pipe and the cats...well about 2 inches before that lip on the cat side it broke...and the exhaust shop had to weld a sleeve over the gap it made...so theres no disconnecting the exhaust...were would i hook up a pressure guage?...what side fuel rail??...i really really hope the filter is clogged...but lately my pump has been whineing so it maybe be that....
but i know it had spark...my buddy took off the coil wire on the distributor and held it over the terminal and told me to start it....i laughed and said its gonna hurt bro he said do it i cranked and i heard a "holy shit" i saw him jump away i thought it was funny...could the spark be to weak to fire the mix??...i was gonna get a msd coil for it n e way so maybe thats it.... n e way ill let you guys know im goin to get a filter toomorrow..i gotta walk 40 blocks each way *shakes head* good thing i got a few "doobies"
later guys
"CRAZY"
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Old 05-02-2002   #10
silverado92
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You should be able to a gauge on that thing that looks like a valve stem on a tire. You should have more than 30 psi there. When you turn the ignition key to the on position, the pump should come on then shut off when it reaches it's cutoff pressure, which is usually between 30 and 48 psi. Give or take a couple psi.
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Old 05-02-2002   #11
gtayumiko
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Hello there f-crazy,

First, you saying ignition control module tested a few months ago. Maybe since you were pushing car so hard at time it stop running, perhaps this module broke/burn out. Have you ever got car to run ever since it stopped running that day? I asking because, if you were going 120mph when car stop running, maybe there is something broken in engine. Sounding like engine blown or major breakages.

Next, in my situation when pump going bad, it seemed to "whinning" extra loudly before it not working anymore. You also mentioning your pump whinning too.

Next, you say that you do not have jackstands or ramps. I have change my GTA fuel pump without these things before. How I do it is, I get floor jack and a very even, smooth, and large piece of wood. I crawling under back of car and disconnecting the two sway bar components. These two pieces I talking about criss-cross one another running from left to right of car. I also disconnect the shock bolts where bottom of shocks connect to differentials. With large block of wood on floor jack, I lifting body of car at the frame. In doing this, body of car will rise up while differential, drive shaft and wheels stay on ground. This giving me enough room to drop tank just enough so I can take out entire fuel pump assembly at top of tank. Only one time my fuel tank is completely out of car and that was when Goodyear changing my fuel pump in Oxnard, CA. (1994). But if you doing this at home, chances are, you won't be taking tank all the way out because car must be so high in the air, Goodyear has hydraulic lift to do this. It take them 7 hours anyways.

Now you mentioning your situation with one piece exhaust. I do not know anything to tell you there because when I doing this fuel pump on my car, I disconnect cat and exhaust where previous GTA owner suggested. You have to disconnect some how because this exhaust pipes are too close to tank and impossible to drop tank enough with it in the way. Good luck.

But I am starting to become somewhat suspicious about what is wrong with your car because it happened all at once when you were pushing the car very hard. Just to me sounds like more of internal engine problem. Clogged fuel filter would be giving you symptoms before and wouldn't effect it so dramatically all at once - when going 120mph. Symptoms for clogged fuel filter in my case was loss of power, car wanting to die after letting off of gas quickly like comming to stop sign, etc. Just car not running anymore, I don't think fuel filter. Hope informations help. Yumiko.
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Old 05-03-2002   #12
Brent87LT1
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Looks like you've got all the help you need here!

IMO:
1)check fuel pressure
2)check all vacuum
3)check the distributor (Yumiko)
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Old 05-06-2002   #13
f-crazy
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update

ok i thought i had the problem solved when i found out it was my tps...they said it was roasted...it took 3 days for the guys at the auto parts store..they sent the "E" engine code twice and then finally got it right and had to ship it from new jersey...i got it put it on reset the ecm and tried to start it and to wouldnt kick over....its got spark and fuel pressure (i hear it reach the cutoff) i changed the fuel filter and the control module is good...i think me and my buddy checked the vacuum on the feul pressure regulater and he said it didnt have very much.....i had a compression leak i tighted the plug...i have oil pressure..
couldnt it be the wiring to the tps?? or maybe the switch on the bottom of the clutch?..ive gone through every thing you can without a scanner and its been unsucessfull....i have no idea whats wrong..but its prolly somethin simple...just my luck..
so when the tps went out so did somehting else...the tps is new and now the other gremlin has to be tracked down....
let me know guys.....my "dogs" are killin me
"crazy"
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Old 05-07-2002   #14
Brent87LT1
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Does the service engine light shine when you turn on the key? If it does, see if you get any codes. if it doesn't, your computer is smoked or is not getting power.
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Old 05-07-2002   #15
f-crazy
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checked iac motor today it had carbon built up because of the tps going bad cleaned it off still will not run could the plugs be fouled or is it like u said the computer the scs light comes on but i thought it came on because the ignition was on and the car wasnt running its had a rich code a few times but they been cleared and this code was for rich tps i reset my computer for 2 hours i can use a computer froma corsica right? thanks guys
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Old 05-08-2002   #16
Brent87LT1
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Are you joking about the corsica computer? I've never seen a corsica with 8 cylinders and TPI. The IAC will almost always have carbon buildup due to where it's located and it's function.

If the ses light comes on then you know the computer has power. Have you pulled the codes off of it? Do you have a service manual to know what the codes mean? All you need is a paper clip to get the codes.
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Old 05-08-2002   #17
f-crazy
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i thought i heard that u can use a corsica computer but all u have to do is change the chip it had the rich code what ever that is lol i guess he was wrong umm the code was cleared ive disconnected the battery 3 times for a total of about 12 hours and still nothing there spark at the plugs took 5 of 8 and cleaned them still nothing how do i test the injectors? thats my next step could the temp sensor or the mat sensor be bad what about a stuck valve what else could it be? thanks guys let me know drop a line
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Old 05-08-2002   #18
Red88GTA
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I am going to throw something in the air because you have done a pretty thorough job of checking all the sensors and etc. A guy who works at the local service station said he had two GM cars, one was a pontiac where he disconnected the wiring harness from the computer and then reconnected it. This cleared the problem on both cars. Otherwise, if you know someone with another computer, I would try that. I am not worried about TPS sensors or any of the other sensors because, the computer would at least go into "LIMP HOME" mode and at least fire up the car. Fuel Pressure is there, spark is there, so either the timing is severly jumped or a timing chain problem or the computer is messing with you.

OK, that's my opinion. Pat
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Old 05-08-2002   #19
f-crazy
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update

i know the belt isnt broken cuz i have spark...i tested the fuel pressure the hillbilly way....i dont have a guage so i had a buddy put a screwdriver and opend it and keyed it up and it squirted pretty good weather it was 40 psi or not i dont know but it was a good amount...theres spark at the plug the computer has power the tps has been replaced the iac cleaned the control module has been tested i changed the pcv valve replaced the fuel filter...im gonna try to check the injector pulse tomorrow..but even with 4 injectors not working it will still run..and i doubt 4 went bad at the same time..how could the timing jump...how could i check that??...

about the fuel pressure tell me if this sounds resonable.....the cutoff is at what, lets say 35 psi...and the pump is still able to pump 10 psi for 3.5 seconds..it would still reach its cutoff pressure but when trying to start it it cant pump it fast enough because its weak??.....when i key it up i hear it pump come on to pressurize the lines for about 3 seconds then when i try to start it thers no fuel there..
when my buddy helped me with it today...i keyed it up but did not go over to ignition he opened the valve and it sprayed out because it had 35 psi...i tried to start it adn the sparay went to a squirt...far less pressure...how does that sound???
let me know guys...im not gonna change the pump the "correct" way....when im done no one will tell
tell me what u think
"crazy"
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Old 05-08-2002   #20
silverado92
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The pump comes on when you turn on the key and shuts off when it reaches its cutoff and most likely won't come on until you try and fire the car up. On a GM you check the injectors with an ohhmeter. You pull the connector off the injector and measure the resistance on the two prongs on the injector itself. GM's should have around 16-18 ohhms of resistance. Any higher or lower indicates a problem with that injector.
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