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Old 08-08-2007   #21
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Re: Take a look at this hack job...

Jeremy,

If that had been a GTA vert it would have been a no brainer and definitely worth taking it back to it's original glory. Considering the obvious things that were done to the car one can only imagine what not so obvious things have been messed with as well. That car was/is a certain money pit.

If I were in the market for a quality T/A vert I would personally go for this car instead: http://www.cars-on-line.com/29538.html
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Old 08-08-2007   #22
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Re: Take a look at this hack job...

I have never been one crazy about verts, but I really do like that one.
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Hp:211.2@4200rpms/Tq.328.5@2700rpms
Best et: 13.959@97.05mph
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Best 60' : 1.875 on BFG Comp TA's w/ 32 lbs of air in them
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Old 08-08-2007   #23
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Re: Take a look at this hack job...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Louvers
Jeremy,

If that had been a GTA vert it would have been a no brainer and definitely worth taking it back to it's original glory. Considering the obvious things that were done to the car one can only imagine what not so obvious things have been messed with as well. That car was/is a certain money pit.

If I were in the market for a quality T/A vert I would personally go for this car instead: http://www.cars-on-line.com/29538.html
At well over double the price of the car here in question, I think it should be seen that the guy got a fairly decent deal. The car in question, is still all "there". It isn't that difficult to find replacement front clip and rims. Someone who wants a triple black TA convertible, that has the access to and ability to do some of the work themselves, probably got a good deal.

As far as not so obvious things, will, that comes with buying used cars. Sure there is a greater risk here. However, the convertible is still there and in fairly good condition. The specific parts appear to be there. So beyond that, fixing what is wrong probably isn't as big of a deal unless there is major structure or body damage.

As far as GM doing it, these convertibles were done at ASC. The VIN appears to make it close to being legit. I say that because without seeing more paper work, it's not 100%. It could have been a T-Top car that someone put in a lot of work and money to make it appear like ASC did it. However, I really doubt that is the case. Doesn't look like the top was simply cut off. Also, it has the convertible body flairs, too.
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Old 08-09-2007   #24
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Re: Take a look at this hack job...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeremyT
At well over double the price of the car here in question, I think it should be seen that the guy got a fairly decent deal. The car in question, is still all "there". It isn't that difficult to find replacement front clip and rims. Someone who wants a triple black TA convertible, that has the access to and ability to do some of the work themselves, probably got a good deal.

As far as not so obvious things, will, that comes with buying used cars. Sure there is a greater risk here. However, the convertible is still there and in fairly good condition. The specific parts appear to be there. So beyond that, fixing what is wrong probably isn't as big of a deal unless there is major structure or body damage.

As far as GM doing it, these convertibles were done at ASC. The VIN appears to make it close to being legit. I say that because without seeing more paper work, it's not 100%. It could have been a T-Top car that someone put in a lot of work and money to make it appear like ASC did it. However, I really doubt that is the case. Doesn't look like the top was simply cut off. Also, it has the convertible body flairs, too.
You make it sound like ... oh just swap out the front end ... redo the interior .... repaint the car .... it's so easy ....

LOL

If you are in the business ... I guess perhaps it's no bid deal but for the average person, it's quite a big deal. Besides, then you have a peiced together car that's anything but "original" and you don't even know what exactly the original state of that car was to begin with (I know it wasn't his picture as he claims). That car might as well be a junk yard find at that point that was rebuilt for some unsuspecting future buyer.

Everyone has an opinion and God knows this site is no exception but I would put my money on an original - unmolested and low mileage car any day over a car like the one in question here even at triple the price. No offense to those "do-it-yourselfers" out there. If you have the time, money, patience and resources ... knock yourself out. Just don't kid yourself into thinking that you will have the same product in the end because you just can't compare original to rebuilt. They are two completely different categories.
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Old 08-09-2007   #25
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Re: Take a look at this hack job...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Louvers
You make it sound like ... oh just swap out the front end ... redo the interior .... repaint the car .... it's so easy ....

LOL

If you are in the business ... I guess perhaps it's no bid deal but for the average person, it's quite a big deal. Besides, then you have a peiced together car that's anything but "original" and you don't even know what exactly the original state of that car was to begin with (I know it wasn't his picture as he claims). That car might as well be a junk yard find at that point that was rebuilt for some unsuspecting future buyer.

Everyone has an opinion and God knows this site is no exception but I would put my money on an original - unmolested and low mileage car any day over a car like the one in question here even at triple the price. No offense to those "do-it-yourselfers" out there. If you have the time, money, patience and resources ... knock yourself out. Just don't kid yourself into thinking that you will have the same product in the end because you just can't compare original to rebuilt. They are two completely different categories.
However, if you look at the majority of the 1st gen cars that are out there, or GTOs or Chevelles, how many of them are original? As long as the time is put into it by someone who knows what they are doing, or has a real passion about it to make it right, who cares if it's original or put back original using the correct parts (I won't use the word rebuilt because the title wouldn't reflect this as a car that has been wrecked). Ok, the car won't have the original hood that came on the car, but it is identical to the one...big deal. Recover the seats, put the correct nose cone on the car, and repaint it, then you have an original '92 T/A convertible that will look as good, if not better than it did when it came off of the assembly line that will bring not as much as a low milage car, but will be really close to the same value, a nice looking interior and exterior will make up for high milage, but then again a 100k mile car that is 15 years old I would consider low milage.

Also I am one of those "do-it-yourselfers" as well mine when finished will look all original on the outside and inside, it has black interior now, but was done with the correct seats and door panels. Sure it has an LT1 and 6-speed in it, mainly because I didn't want to take the time trying to find an L98, wiring, ecm and a 700R4 to put in the car. I've had people ride in the car that has 350 Irocs and T/A and said that the car seems more fun to drive with the LT1 vs their L98 which is what I was after, something that will look good with the power to boot and if you had seen the pictures of the car when I bought it you would understand why I say "rescue" than rebuild, just like someone would be rescuing this T/A and hopefully put it back original.
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Last edited by Klortho; 08-09-2007 at 08:20 AM.
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Old 08-09-2007   #26
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Re: Take a look at this hack job...

Yes Klortho,

You are 100% correct and I didn't say that there is anything wrong with restoring a car or even rebuilding it for that matter if that's what you are into. I am actually glad that people do rescue these cars and there are some incredible examples of rescued cars out there. For me personally however, I prefer an original car and there is a major difference especially from a collectors point of view. The original car is always worth the most (by a significant margin), a professional restoration would be next and a homemade restoration or rebuild would definitely be the last in line. My response was more about the "value" comment then anything else although I can see after re-reading the post where you could have taken it differently. You simply can't compare the value of the "hack job" car to the car that I posted in the line from cars-on-line.

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Old 08-09-2007   #27
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Re: Take a look at this hack job...

Ahh but if done correctly with correct GM parts (not aftermarket) how does one know if it is all original or been restored (not rebuilt from being wrecked but a body missing some of the parts that came on it from the factory)? It would be impossible unless the person told you straight out. You can still get all of the correct lables for the driver door and emission label under the hood. I guess what I'm getting at is, if done properly, you can't tell original from restored or redone with parts that were not the originals that came on the car.
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Old 08-09-2007   #28
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Re: Take a look at this hack job...

Very true and that's why without very thorough documentation the car is also worth a lot less. When you by a car as a collectable, you must know it's history. On my vette, I have every receipt for anything that has ever been done to the car from the day it came to and left the dealer. I have a paper trail that starts from day one and shows (without question) that it's a true 5k mile car. I also have a photo library showing all major areas of the car, from it's original condition to it's present day (which except for the battery hasn't changed a bit). My car has also had a professional appraisal and believe me, they know what to look for. Could a crook get away with passing off a car as mint "original" condition without this proper documentation. Perhaps, but only to an ansuspecting buyer or by selling it at a "bargain" so someone doesn't do the proper research because they "think" they are getting a deal. At the end of the day, the classic and collector car world is a big place but the true purist know what to look for and can usually spot a scammer a mile down the road. This is a mute arguement uless it really applies to you. When you have a mint low mileage "true original" car, you will do everything in your power to protect that status because in fact, you are protecting a valuable investment.
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Old 08-09-2007   #29
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Re: Take a look at this hack job...

In other words look at the 71 Cuda that sold on Barrett Jackson, that was sold for a few mil. So, in that respect yes, a restored car will bring more than a original car. But I also think it depends on the car and where its being sold at.
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1991 GTA Trans Am
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on the original motor!!!!
Time of Death on motor, 4:07pm on 05/29/2010.
Hp:211.2@4200rpms/Tq.328.5@2700rpms
Best et: 13.959@97.05mph
Best mph: 98.3
Best 60' : 1.875 on BFG Comp TA's w/ 32 lbs of air in them
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Old 08-09-2007   #30
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Re: Take a look at this hack job...

Quote:
Originally Posted by fearthisgta
In other words look at the 71 Cuda that sold on Barrett Jackson, that was sold for a few mil. So, in that respect yes, a restored car will bring more than a original car. But I also think it depends on the car and where its being sold at.

Cliff ... I am glad someone else jumped in here. The Cuda was obviously "ultra rare". In some of those cases, a restored car may be the only thing left. I don't think that a lot of '71 muscle car owners just stuck them into time capsules like so many cars are today. We also know that auctions are driven on emotions and there are players there with redicuous amounts of money to throw around so the testosterone alone likely drove up the price.

At the end of the day ... whether you are into "true original", restored or you just want to modify the hell out it, as long as we all enjoy our cars I guess that's all that matters.

I have tried to avoid this topic lately and I just remember why.
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Old 08-09-2007   #31
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Re: Take a look at this hack job...

.......IMO, the bottom line is this, to each his own. Some prefer originals only and some dont care( that would be me ) , as long as the one doin the buyin is happy who cares, its bein enjoyed.
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1991 GTA Trans Am
w/305,231 miles
on the original motor!!!!
Time of Death on motor, 4:07pm on 05/29/2010.
Hp:211.2@4200rpms/Tq.328.5@2700rpms
Best et: 13.959@97.05mph
Best mph: 98.3
Best 60' : 1.875 on BFG Comp TA's w/ 32 lbs of air in them
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Old 08-09-2007   #32
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Re: Take a look at this hack job...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Louvers
You make it sound like ... oh just swap out the front end ... redo the interior .... repaint the car .... it's so easy ....
I think you're being a bit harsh and personal. Honestly, I don't think I did anything of the sort. Outside of the front clip, what is so wrong with the car that it will take too much time, resources, or money to repair? I don't see any mangled body panels, stripped interior, 350 with a carb, etc. It's basically all there. The car sold for around $2100. The car is not "junk". Someone did hurt its value, in my opinion, with the decisions made. But it still is a rare car, GTA or not. The convertibles weren't mass produced. It's likely a diamond in the rough.

And speaking of original, there is a line somewhere. Even a 50K mile car is not going to be completely original. It may have had a repaint (common issue with these cars), slight fender bender, garage accident, shortblock installed due to some fluke defect, etc. It could have been in a prior accident, and was repaired "professionally" with "GM" parts. These cars are more than a few years old, so just about anything is possible and uncertain. You may never really know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Louvers

Just don't kid yourself into thinking that you will have the same product in the end because you just can't compare original to rebuilt. They are two completely different categories.
Again, I did not do that. My point was, it was a decent deal. You see hardtops going for more money, with more mileage. You cannot turn back the mileage on a car and you cannot make a hardtop an ASC convertible. Sure, some 200k mileage vehicles may have been more cared for than this one (speculate), but still, to the public, I think it's clear that a sub 100K mile car is going to be more interesting than a 200K mile car. And when you factor in the convertible, and the low production, that just adds to the value. This car is rare, and is somewhat desirable. People like convertibles, and yes, some people hate them (leaks, etc.).

Still, it was a decent deal. I fail to see how it's "junk" because someone put a knight rider front clip on it, normal paint issues and incorrect rims. Again, for a car this old, with known paint issues, and rims being an easy deal, I only see the front clip as the bigger issue, and that's not something that should kill a deal on a car that is more likely to have some value down the road.

Would you just rather see the car sent to the junkyard?!

I'm sure the attitude displayed by the owner doesn't help some of the people here. But in defense, when you list your car on eBay, you open yourself to all types of people and comments.
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Old 08-09-2007   #33
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Re: Take a look at this hack job...

Okay ... this will be my last post on this topic and I will try to make my point as simple and sweet as possible.

Look at the Ebay car and what it sold for and then look at the cars-on-line car and even if they only get 10k for the original car, which of two cars is the nicer example and which of the two cars is worth more? Well, I am not a math major nor a car expert but the difference is pretty clear to me. Having said that, whatever floats your boat is fine by me.

At the end of the day, the numbers don't lie and if we are honest with ourselves we can all see what the differences are between the classes of cars are what they are selling for and know which cars are the most sought after and will hold their value the best. This doesn't mean that we have to like it or even agree with it, but the facts are the facts.

When our comments become personal because we start comparing our own individual circumstances to a topic that was about other peoples cars, then the thread starts to get ugly and that was not my intention here. I have total respect for everyone here at the source page and I apologize if any of my comments offended you in any way because again, that was never my intention.
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Old 08-09-2007   #34
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Re: Take a look at this hack job...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Louvers
Okay ... this will be my last post on this topic and I will try to make my point as simple and sweet as possible.

Look at the Ebay car and what it sold for and then look at the cars-on-line car and even if they only get 10k for the original car, which of two cars is the nicer example and which of the two cars is worth more?
Who is stating that your example isn't worth more?? No one stated that your example wasn't worth more. It SHOULD be as it's 6x the amount!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Louvers
At the end of the day, the numbers don't lie and if we are honest with ourselves we can all see what the differences are between the classes of cars are what they are selling for and know which cars are the most sought after and will hold their value the best. This doesn't mean that we have to like it or even agree with it, but the facts are the facts.
And the fact is, someone got a fair and decent deal, which was my entire point from the beginning. It doesn't have to be a GTA. It's a rare car, that is equipped. Not all of us are perfectionists and require the perfect car. This car is not junk, and if the things are corrected, someone will have a rare car that will have a better value than others.

I'm disappointed to learn that a car has to either be a GTA, or perfect, to be worth anything. Since it was mentioned that if it was a GTA that it would be a no brainer, that appears to be the message.

Sorry,I don't want to argue. But the fact is, the car has value and will have even more with the simple fixings that werw noted. Who here has never had to recover seats, get a paint job or swap rims? The frontclip appears to be the biggest concern, and even that doesn't require any degree.
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Last edited by JeremyT; 08-09-2007 at 11:18 AM.
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Old 08-09-2007   #35
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Re: Take a look at this hack job...

Okay Jeremy,

I said that I wouldn't post again on this topic but now I have to. I think that the "junk yard" comment is what really ruffled your feathers and I do retract that statement because it probably wasn't fair. I got my balls busted on Corvette forum awhile back for making a similiar comment and I forget sometimes that most of you on forums like this and others work on your cars all of the time. Many of you have daily drivers and many of you have cars that have been saved from the wrecking yards. My experiences and thus my perspective on certain things come from a completely different point of view. You may notice that I don't hang around the "tech" section of this forum very often because if my car breaks, it goes to the dealership. There are very few items that I will get in and tackle myself. People tend to view the world around them based on their individual experiences and the knowledge that they have gathered through the years. You and I just simply see things completely different, and that's okay. You seem like the type that looks for a cheap buy that can be restored and fixed up and I am the type that looks for a well conditioned vehicle that needs minimal work and has a collectablitly factor. These are just some of differences that make the world go round ... that make us unique as individuals and keeps things interesting. You may value an item in a completely different way than I would and that's okay. Like Cliff said, if you are getting enjoyment out of it .... does it really matter how much you paid for it? How much you will later sale it for?

This thread and this site for that matter is all about sharing our opinions. Thank God that we don't all agree or it would be one boring ass place around here. I for one don't want to be afraid to state my opinion and I don't feel that you should be either. Is either one of us right? Who knows and who cares? They are just opinions and make for good conversation but we don't have to throw our fists up over them.

The only thing that I will say in closing is that all of our cars are terrific examples of American classic muscle cars. Of course some are nicer than others, some are rarer than others and yes many are worth more than others.... but we all share a common bond and a common interest in the great GTA. So let's all just try to get along ... share our opinions but know they are just that .... opinions and it's not scripture written in the bible ..... and let's all be friends .... Okay??
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Old 08-09-2007   #36
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Re: Take a look at this hack job...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klortho
However, if you look at the majority of the 1st gen cars that are out there, or GTOs or Chevelles, how many of them are original?
Well, I do not know how many there are, but, the ones that are original are the ones that get purchased for top dollars. I have seen cars such as a Roadrunner get sold for $75,000 and then another one that looks the same get sold for only $20,000. The difference is the originality. The one that sold for $20,000 did not have numbers matching and the engine was a larger one then what the car originally came with according to the RPO/buildsheet/vin number (however they are able to tell with that years of car. Yumiko
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Old 08-09-2007   #37
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Re: Take a look at this hack job...

This is sort of what I am talking about in regards to the price differences and why. Notice the difference in price and there are more then just a few bids in for the $87,000 one. Yumiko

The car below is everything original matching (engine, color, interior seats, rims, etc.):

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=170136950960

This car below is not everything original matching (engine, color, interior seats, rims, etc.):

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=220136304081

Moral of the story, want the most for your GTA someday, keep it original.
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Old 08-09-2007   #38
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Re: Take a look at this hack job...

You can't compare a RoadRunner to a Superbird. A undriveable, dead engine, ripped up interior, could fetch more than a Roadrunner could, even in good shape.

Find 2 indentical model & year cars, then compare original to restored. The restoration also depends on the level & quality of the work done.
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Old 08-09-2007   #39
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Re: Take a look at this hack job...

Yumiko ..... I thank you for the confirmation of what I have been trying to say. You went about it in a more diplomatic way that was also very effective. Sometimes I assume that people will "get" what I am trying to say but obviously that's not always the case.

BTW ... that first car is quite interesting but I have to say I prefer the look of the second and I like the price better too.


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Old 08-09-2007   #40
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Re: Take a look at this hack job...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen
You can't compare a RoadRunner to a Superbird. A undriveable, dead engine, ripped up interior, could fetch more than a Roadrunner could, even in good shape.

Find 2 indentical model & year cars, then compare original to restored. The restoration also depends on the level & quality of the work done.
Stephen .... not another opinion ..... LMAO
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