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Old 08-13-2007   #1
gtayumiko
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Nice Weekend

My weekend was nice, got to spend some nice times driving my GTA. Sorry but I am not on the internet during weekends so I miss many discussions here that take place during those days.

I was reading all the posts that were put up during the weekend and I see that the "Hack Job" one is closed. I do not mean to restart a problem here but one of the guys there did say something that interested me and I would like to ask the question.

The post was something into the effects of: if a complete hacked up GTA could be worth as much as a mint condition GTA after all the parts were replaced with new or even decent ones and the cars condition was restored to mint, would this restored hack job car be worth as much as the mint condition car. Yes perhaps it would be if all the stuff is done correctly.....

I think it could be worth as much but.....the big question is how much would a person have to spend on all these new and decent parts and to put the car back into mint condition. It would be thousands of dollars and so much time working on it to get it back to that point. That is why mint condition cars sell for so much more, no one really mentioned how much money and time it would cost to get it back to that point, except serious car collectors do consider that one. And that is why Kelley Blue Book has the three conditions starting from the lowest and going to the highest with the values accordingly.

If I had to start from the beginning with a GTA that went through a dozen previous owners who had different plans for the car each time it was in a different previous owners possession, and then I had to completely restore the car with new parts like I have on my own GTA, it would cost me thousands and thousands of dollars and it would not only take some number of years to just do the work to the car, but also to shop around and collect all the new parts, since so many are no longer available at GM.

Anyways, I just wanted to express my feelings about why some cars are at higher values then others. The cars history and the current condition are the key important issue.

Hope that everyone has a good week. Yumiko
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Old 08-13-2007   #2
merc3065
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Re: Nice Weekend

Speaking from experience here...I've torn apart and rebuilt 2 trans ams 100% frame up.

It takes a lot of time and patience to do things right. It also takes a lot of money as well. Used parts can be reconditioned to look new again easy enough.

For the purist out there who wants nothing but NOS parts, forget going cheap. It's going to cost you twice as much as the car is worth to rebuild it using NOS parts.

There is something that irks me about how some must have a car in 100% original factory condition. It's impossible to have something in factory condition if you drive the car.

As for value, you can get a custom GTA done up right is worth 10 times more than an original one sitting right next to it looking just as good.

Remember, shiny is what sells, if something is shiny, a guy is more likely to buy it. Chrome in an engine bay done tastefully can easily increase the value of a GTA. Of course the purist out there who wants a "virgin" GTA that is in mint condition is going to pay through the nose too.

Honestly, when I think about it, value means nothing to me as long as my car is unique and different than everyone else's, because it makes mine worth more than all the others put together.

Basically when someone slaps a price tag on my hard work, parts, cost of repairs etc, it's just a fraction of what it's worth. I had someone offer me 4000 for my notchback, but i've got over 8000 into the engine alone, i've got another 1600 in the exhaust system, i've got another $2200 in the stereo system, i've got $4200 in body work and frame work. Take that and add it all up and you have like 20000 in the car not including the original cost price of both my cars together plus time, plus my shop time rental. I'd never get 40000 back for a notchback in the condition that it is in unless I can do something wild, crazy to it that would increase it's value above what it was originally worth.

Looking back to what the Kelly Blue book values are for a vehicle. That's a general average price taken from across the US of each of the different categories, option packages and desireability. The cars are not exactly holding their value book wise because of how they get the number to begin with.

Honestly if someone came up to me and offered me 1000 bucks and called my car a piece of s*** i'd tell em to go blow it out their shorts. If they could appreciate the time and effort into it and offered me 6000 i'd be more than happy to help them load up the truck.

In the end, the car is worth as much as the owner says its worth. And for what it's worth, after trying to offload mine for the last 2 years, im keeping the damn thing till it works and is finished!
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Old 08-13-2007   #3
gtayumiko
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Re: Nice Weekend

I know that there are a lot of expensive parts when someone restores cars. One car that really amazes me because of how much parts are being sold for are the mid 1960s Mustangs. There is a place that I know of that sells only 1960s Mustang parts and there is nothing cheap at all with any of those parts. Hopefully, GTA parts will be that valuable someday. Yumiko
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Old 08-13-2007   #4
vingta1989
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Re: Nice Weekend

just want to add a quick comment..as we all know cars are a tough investment ..its very rare to sell a car you have put aton of time money and knowledge into and get even half of the money back..if you have the means are are able to fix a hacked up car.. such as a gta back to prime condition .and i mean perfect .....no one will be able to tell ...i have done cars my whole life from body work to mechanical..etc..i have restored a couple of gtas and even purchased a few low mileage beauties..when something is done right ...its done right..these cars werent even perfect from the factory!!!..this weekend i had my gta convert. out ..someone came up to me and was in love with the car..offered my 10,000 for it ..i smiled and told him it was not for sale...ten grand wouldnt even cover the motor...
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Old 08-13-2007   #5
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Re: Nice Weekend

Yumiko .... I certainly won't get into any debate again on this issue because Frankie may just ban me from the site ..... but .... I will say one last thing since I was cut off from replying in the "closed thread". What I really neglected to say in my statements was exactly what Merc described. A car is worth what any individual is willing to pay for it regardless of it's history or condition. For example, your car is mint and would be just as nice if not nicer than any GTA that a person could find with any amount of miles on it. Having said that, we all know that you have spent a great deal of money to bring it back to that condition. You have spent as much or more as it would cost to purchase a so called "mint original" GTA. The question for me was really coming more from a collectors point of view in that I would "personally" choose a low mileage factory car versus one that has been rebuilt but there are exceptions (like yours).

I also want to add on a personal note an apology to Jeremy and to Klortho. I guess that I have had a bit of built up tension lately that I decided to unleash on those guys and looking back over my posts... I was a bit of an ass to them. Sorry to you Merc as well for letting the post get out of hand. Anyway ... like Frankie said, all was said that needed to be said .... that is, except for my apology.

Darrell
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Old 08-13-2007   #6
FrankieRider2
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Re: Nice Weekend

OK, now.... Yumiko is trying to run the old "end around" on us here, folks. She posts a generic topic and then jumps right back into a discussion that prompted a thread closure. Women, women....

Good try, though.... I bought it for probably 10 whole seconds.

Also.... merc skirted the issue too.... he never actually said whether or not he would take $4K for his Notchback. Did anybody else notice that...? LOL

I don't want to think about banning anybody here.... because these debates, while heated at times, are what make our hobby so great, IMO. Being able to hash things out here helps everybody in the long run.

Let me see if I can get my take across here without inspiring any more flame-ups....

I can appreciate the fellow (or lady) who rebuilds their car from the ground up to make it as pristine as it was when it left the factory; that kind of loyalty or dedication is tremendous. It take that and a ton of $$$ to do it and do it correctly. To most that will be enough when it comes to value; as merc said "shiny is what sells" and to most people looking at buying a car like this that fact will seal the deal, so to speak. For the majority of people.... if it looks new, it's new enough. That's all well and good.

Now for my take on the other perspective, let me use my two GTAs as an example. One is a 53,000-mile original-to-me-since-09/23/1988-car.... the other is a 117,000 former daily driver with at least one minor fender-bender in its past.

Now even if I took Hector and spent, say.... as much as $30K on restoring it back to pristine factory standards.... would it be original? Of course not. There are things like previous wear, damage, flex, etc. to take into account that the car has accumulated or has gone through over the years; some of this stuff or its effects cannot be taken care of with a restoration. It can be covered up, but not erased entirely.... or at least in my own opinion. The lifetime history and cycles of wear and abuse will always be there.

But to 90% of prospective GTA Notchback buyers who see it, they'll start drooling right off the bat: it's black, it's gold, it's so shiny.... oooo, look at that deep paint.... why, you could eat off that engine.... and on and on. Tell them its completely restored to factory specs and they'll whip out the checkbook. And that's great.... really.

Now my red car has been with me since Day One, and I know every single thing that has ever happened to it: how it has been maintained, everywhere it has gone, where it has been driven, who drove it, how fast they drove it, how bumpy the road was. I know its never been dinged, damaged or anything else. Does that pedigree make it worth more to me.... absolutely. That kind of originality can't be restored "from the ground up" or with "every single nut and bolt" and adds tremendously to a car's value, at least in my opinion and probably a good degree of others as well. What a car has "been through" in its life is a huge sign, and evidence can usually be seen if you look hard enough.

But then again probably not to other people.... put the cars side by side in the same shape and the black one will always be more popular. It's flashy, it's rare, and black GTAs are so hard to beat when they look right. Why, the Big Red Car looks almost dowdy compared to it.... even with less than half the miles and usage on it. But I'll always love it more no matter what. Somebody else.... maybe not so much.

So, it is what it is.... there'll always be this argument among enthusaists and we have to leave room for everybody's point-of-view. End of story.

Oh, and Yumiko gets banned the next time she does this.... LOL
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Old 08-13-2007   #7
tandy806
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Re: Nice Weekend

I have not added my thoughts on this topic but would like to. First of all I have loved cars my entire life and have been able to pass that on to my two boys. I can appreciate both a restored car and an all original one too. But given a choice I would take an original car over a restored one. There is just something extra special about a car, any car, that has been able to survive 20 years without anyone jacking with it. I know that "original" is very subjective term and open to all kinds of opinions. The type of original car I am talking about will have a new battery, maybe new tires etc, but the car is basically unmolested. The car escaped being driven into the ground or having a bunch of crap added to it over the years. There is nothing wrong with adding mods to your car, that is cool with me. I just prefer one that is basically as it left the factory. Cars that can last in this state are special to me. That is just my preferance. Everyone is different and like I said at the beginning I like all cars, but to me the original ones are the ones to have.
Any GTA, whether original or restored or modified has an owner that is proud of it and I can respect that. Thanks, Tandy
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Old 08-14-2007   #8
FearThisGTA
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Re: Nice Weekend

I will add one more comment on this subject and then I am gonna be done.
First of all being in the automotive world oem, aftermarket, AND in the performance/racing end I can tell you there are basically about hmmmm 4 kinda car folks out there. There's the all original guy who likes them just like it says all original and unmolested. AND they can take this to great lengths. The car may even still have the plastic on the seats and when its "rolled out" it "never" touches the pavement and never get s cranked.
Then there's the restored style which is exactly what it states, it is restored to its original condition right down to the correct overspray and markings from the factory even the correct tires are on it. This to can be taken to the extreme as to never touch hard pavement and never cranked.
I will say in the 2 types stated above we have all seen them take it to the extreme. They call it a concours tyoe car. And these 2 types of people have been havin the same arguement since the first car show,lol.
The 2rd( and which probably fits alot of us hear), is the modded/driver type, which is the one who may or may have not modded their car, BUT they can drive anywhere or daily if they so choose and there different levels as well on the modded end of this as wel all the way to a prostreet style. The last one is a racer and we all know about that one
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Best et: 13.959@97.05mph
Best mph: 98.3
Best 60' : 1.875 on BFG Comp TA's w/ 32 lbs of air in them
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Old 08-14-2007   #9
gtayumiko
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Re: Nice Weekend

I am sorry Frankie for bringing stuff up from another thread, not my intentions, I just wanted to make a comment that I was unable to make because the other one was closed. I missed my chance (like many other things in life) because I do not go on internet during weekends. And what that was is a justification as to why mint condition cars should be sold for much more then just run down cars, that reason no one mentioned which was the amount of time and money it will cost someone to make a run down car mint condition. Lets just say that I sold my GTA and then in ten years I want another one. Either I would have to spend $30,000 on one that is in mint condition already and skip all the hard labor and time, or spend $2,000 and then another $15,000 on new/used parts, repairing and painting and then who knows how much hard labor and time doing the work, having the work done, and spending time shopping around for the parts. It is much easier and time efficient to just purchase one that is already at that mint condition point for $30,000 and enjoy it right away.

Anyway, this weekend coming soon, I am wondering if I should drive my GTA to Oxnard and Los Angeles. My friends who I went to college with are having a private party, so we are all getting together to have fun. I want to drive the BMW because it is more comfortable and better on gas, plus I do not have to put more miles on my GTA. But it would also be nice to show up to the party in the same car that I had in the later 1980s and early 1990s when all of us used to go dancing and dinner and stuff like that in my GTA. If I do decide to take my GTA, I will take a nice drive down the coast to there. Maybe even take some photographs of the trip in my GTA. Too many decisions.......Yumiko
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Old 08-14-2007   #10
strc09
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Re: Nice Weekend

Speaking of Cali...I so wish that I would have had my GTA while I was out there. It would have been so cool to run the car down Hwy. 1 along the coast with all the twists and turns. That's all I thought about while I was there. Too bad the weather was kind of crappy and overcast while I was there for the most part. Oh well...I could only dream.
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Old 08-15-2007   #11
gtayumiko
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Re: Nice Weekend

Another sort of nice drive, if you like the curves and stuff like that is a road called Ortega Highway. I took it because I wanted to get from the coastal roads to Highway 15 because I was going to Temecula, CA. This Ortega Highway is pretty high up and there are some nice places to stop along the way and look out over the area. Very nice. But I did not like the curves that much because it feels like it is wearing out my front tires faster. Yumiko
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Old 08-16-2007   #12
mr.turbota
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Re: Nice Weekend

Yep!
Both are great driving roads.
Being originally from SoCal, I have driven though those roads quite abit!
In fact, during one of these drives with a local car club, a Car Craft magazine editor road along with us thirdgenners, and we got published in the March 2000 issue.
Nothing beats the view of the Pacific Ocean on the Highway1 drive.
So beautiful, it's almost beyond belief.
We use to drive up that way, above San Fran, to go to Sonoma, and do some wine tasteing. On the way back, we would stop off in Santa Barbra and do more.
We would always bring home a few cases of fantastic wine.
And no, we didn't drink them all at once!
I use to hang out with the Sacto Trans Am Club for their yearly Trans-A-Rama and other car shows throughout the years.
They would be held in either Sacto or Reno.
For a few years, they were shown in HPP magazine.
I miss those.

George
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Old 08-16-2007   #13
strc09
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Re: Nice Weekend

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.turbota
Yep!
Both are great driving roads.
Being originally from SoCal, I have driven though those roads quite abit!
In fact, during one of these drives with a local car club, a Car Craft magazine editor road along with us thirdgenners, and we got published in the March 2000 issue.

George
I have that issue!
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Old 08-16-2007   #14
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Re: Nice Weekend

I have to look I may have it as well.
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1991 GTA Trans Am
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on the original motor!!!!
Time of Death on motor, 4:07pm on 05/29/2010.
Hp:211.2@4200rpms/Tq.328.5@2700rpms
Best et: 13.959@97.05mph
Best mph: 98.3
Best 60' : 1.875 on BFG Comp TA's w/ 32 lbs of air in them
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